Look out, Wisconsin. The Minnesota smoking ban is knocking on your door and you have some not-so sly infidels that are helping things along.
It would seem that some people are simply unable to leave well enough alone. They see an opportunity to take advantage of a situation and decide that they know best when it comes to other people’s lives. This is from Pheisty’s post last night:
“The San Pedro Cafe is owned and operated by Pete Foster, who also owns Barker’s, a bar and grill in downtown Hudson. San Pedro and Barker’s have been smoke-free since Pete Foster opened them. Good for him. He saw a market for a smoke-free dining experience, and ran with it. He recognized a popular niche and is now very successful in his ventures.
However, Pete Foster isn’t content with running his eating establishments as he sees fit. He wants to force other bar and restaurant owners to be told how to run theirs.”
Aye caramba! That’s no bueno! No bueno at all.
I have kept a very watchful eye on the progression of the smoking ban in Wisconsin over the past year, knowing that the folks in Madison look to Minnesota as some sort of Mecca of liberalism that should be followed, and fearing that by Minnesota passing the Freedom to Breathe Act that Madison would be wetting their pants to follow.
I was disturbed to no end when a poll surfaced back in February that was being used to promote a smoke free Wisconsin to the state government. I managed to obtain a copy of the survey and poll results and was disturbed by the lines of questioning which I found to be rather leading and not at all designed to accurately represent Wisconsin voters. For instance, they ask people their perception (based on opinion) regarding the health hazard of second hand smoke. They didn’t present the facts, they simply wanted to base their results on the public’s opinion, which I would say makes for poor policy. They also go so far as to present the people with these arguments:
“Supporters of smoke-free laws say that everybody has the right to breathe clean air without the dangers of second-hand smoke. Second-hand smoke contains more than 60 cancer-causing chemicals like formaldehyde, arsenic and lead, and this law will protect everyone from second-hand smoke. It is time Wisconsin join the 16 other states around the country that have passed smoke-free restaurant and bar laws.
or
Opponents of smoke-free laws say that business owners, and not the government, should have the right to decide whether or not smoking is allowed in their bars and taverns. Smoke-free laws can cause bars to close, costing jobs. We can accommodate both smokers and non-smokers with common sense steps like separate sections for smokers and better ventilation.”
The person being polled is then asked if they support a law that prohibits smoking in public places based on these two arguments. As if! You might as well ask people if they support the right of a bar owner to kill you or if you support the government stepping in and making sure they don’t kill you. There is no objectivity to this poll, yet this is what was presented to the state government as an “official poll” regarding the voter’s stance on smoking in Wisconsin.
So now fast forward to October. Minnesota has just enacted its silly anti-smoking laws which is driving business from Minnesota bars and restaurants to Wisconsin where you can still light up with your beer. This is what brings us to today’s issue, and one that really should outrage anybody who believes in private property rights.
I’m not going to redo the work that Pheisty did, but I will shameless quote her regarding this hot topic and why we are growing concerned with people overstepping their bounds. She picks apart an interview with Pete Foster from the Hudson Star Observer, and has this to say about it:
“He makes sure to let us know what a good businessman he was for noticing that the non-smoking niche would prove to be a lucrative business decision, but in the same breath wants to deny other business owners’ their own niche that may include the use of a legal product on their property.”
Very true. He clearly claims that smoking is a public health issue and that it is up to somebody else (i.e. the government) to put their foot down. So in other words, he had the right to decide to make his restaurants smoke free but he doesn’t want anybody to have the right to allow smoking.
But it gets worse. Foster is displeased with the fact that smokers from Minnesota will be patronizing Wisconsin establishments. As he says, “I don’t like the idea of turning Hudson into the ashtray for Minnesota.” Boo hoo. But you see, here’s the real quandary. Foster doesn’t have to worry about it. He has made is restaurants smoke free already. His businesses will not see any change due to the Minnesota smoke-free law. He’s simply whining to hear himself whine.
I guess this is the real heart of the matter, isn’t it? These people want to have control over others. They are not content with the freedom to run their business as they see fit. They want to extend their beliefs onto the rights of others. They want to use tools like this cute little poll to convince the government that other business owners do not deserve the right to choose how to run their own business – even when those businesses have no direct impact on them. Would a smoke-free Wisconsin affect Foster’s business? No. The place is already well known as a smoke-free establishment and is frequently full. Businesses who do allow smoking are not drawing away his customers. This is simply a matter of control and elevating personal feelings and beliefs above common sense and reason.
Oh, but this issue of control gets worse… And as Pheisty points out, the owner of “Mamma Maria’s,” Gary Lamars, seems to think that the responsibility for his business shouldn’t fall on him. As he says:
“It’s a question of health. Why wouldn’t you support a move that would protect my customers and my employees? It’s the right thing to do.”
Well Gary, then you have the law on your side, buddy. You can make the decision to make your own business smoke-free. You don’t need a law that takes that decision from you – unless of course you’re too chicken to anger your own customers by making that decision yourself. If that’s the case, why don’t you let Foster make that decision for you? He wants that control, you can’t handle things yourself, so why don’t you partner up and let him hang up the no-smoking signs? Or are you simply afraid of losing business and you want the government to swoop in and make sure you don’t lose your customers by eliminating smoking everywhere. Either way you want it, Gary, you’re lying through your teeth that this is a health issue.
The moral of the story here, and to try to make a rambling story short, is that we have a big problem here. We have people running around using “public health” as an argument for something that is really just a control issue for people who don’t like smoking or are afraid of losing their customers if they voluntarily go smoke free. These people are rocketing their own feelings and fears above the basic rights that they are afforded and want those same rights stripped from everybody. This is not right, Wisconsin, and we need to put our own foot down before we end up in the same boat as Minnesota… And I, for one, do not want to be Minnesota’s little tag along buddy. We need to show some backbone on the issues that Minnesota caved on.
- The Tavern League of Wisconsin’s page on the smoking ban
- A list of establihments run out of business after Madison and Appleton went smoke free
- The longest running (1960-1998) study of second hand smoke and health which showed very little connection between second-hand smoke and adverse health effects.
- A study from the Oak Ridge National Observatory regarding second-hand smoke
- A study from New York and California showing smoking bans don’t reduce heart attacks
- An article by The Antisocialist on second-hand smoke with some good data.
















“I have kept a very watchful eye on the progression of the smoking ban in Wisconsin over the past year, knowing that the folks in Madison look to Minnesota as some sort of Mecca of liberalism…”
As a former Madisonian, that frightens me. I would have thought that the people of Wisconsin would have learned from our mistakes…
LL
I have to wonder what would be gained by someone who owns a bar/restaurant that does not allow smoking forcing others to follow suit. It seems to be a better business decision to keep that niche for yourself.
Here in Ohio, where we recently passed a smoking ban, one of the bars nearby that was non-smoking before the ban ironically shut down after the ban. I’m not sure if it was because of the ban, but I can’t help but believe that their business suffered when all other bars became smoke-free as well.
Personally, I’m not entirely displeased with the results of the ban, but it is depressing the sheer number of people who think it’s entirely allright to tell others how to run their businesses, rather than just not patronize them. There’s plenty of reasons why I avoid certain bars and restaurants, but I would never think to use government to force them to cater to my personal preferences. But apparently, the majority of people think that’s perfectly fine.
Hey LL, thanks for stopping by. You’re right, you would think that people would learn from mistakes, but that just doesn’t seem to be the name of the game, does it. The current method seems to be to look at mistakes and try to cover them up by citing flawed logic and arguments (i.e. it’s for public health).
Jason, what you’re talking about is the mark of a good businessman; however anti-smoking zealots are much less concerned with good business practices than they are with having things the way they want them. Very little about smoking bans makes good business sense. As we strive to point out, the markets speak and if people didn’t smoke there wouldn’t be anyplace that allows smoking. It’s all pretty elementary supply and demand. There is a demand for establishments that allow smoking, so business owners meet that demand.
But you’re right, if suddenly the playing field is opened up and everyplace is smoke free, those niche businesses that relied on people wanting a particular kind of environment just without the smoke (like Barkers which has the tavern environment without the smoke) will suffer a loss when people can suddenly go to any tavern (and not have to pay the premium price that Barker’s demands).
It’s perhaps worth noting also, if only in passing, that long before the anti-smoking craze had started, the amount of smokers in this country was decreasing with an astonishing celerity.
It had gone from over 50 percent of the total population habitually smoking to, by the late 1980’s, about 25 percent; by the nineties, to around 22 percent. It’s even lower now (though not, interestingly, among the teens for whom it was outlawed). Thus, in addition to all this excellent data that you and Pheisty provide, arclightzero, notice also that many restaurants, fine-dining in particular (the antisocialist bartended in two of them), were voluntarily adopting no smoking policies, for strictly business reasons, before anyone forced them into it: since the vast majority of customers were no longer smokers, it simply didn’t pay to have a smoking section anymore, because the non-smokers – i.e. the majority – didn’t want to sit in the smoking section; and the minority – i.e. the smokers – as these restaurant owners rightly reckoned, were (semi)content to step outside between courses and blow a couple fags, as we used to say.
Smoking sections, in other words, were on the way out long before it became fashionable to force people to ban smoking in their own places of business.
Another elegant example of how free-markets regulate themselves; how bureaucrats fuck them up.
It’s also important to note that the reason the amount of smokers has decreased so significantly in this country is that people are choosing to quit or not start, and doing so because the harmful effects are increasingly promulgated.
So I guess it turns out people have brains and the faculty of choice after all.
God forbid
AntiSocialist – Count me in those percentages. I quit smoking 15-16 years ago.
Having said all of that, I think smoking bans are bad law. If the government really cared about your health, they would just make tobacco illegal.
LL
Hey, Ryan. Thanks for putting this out there.
If the government can tell you that you can’t use a legal product on your own private property, what’s next? We need to fight back, and we need to support campaigns to stop the ban before it starts. The link that Ryan put up on this post (The Tavern League of Wisconsin) is crucial. We need to organize, and beat this assault on our private property rights.
I’m willing to fight for this one. Not because I’m a smoker, I’ve been trying to quit for years. It’s because this is a huge assault on our rights as American citizens. If we don’t have rights to our own private property, we may as well not even call ourselves free.
For those of you who have read any of Ayn Rand’s works, she makes this abundantly clear. The government is already taking our hard-earned money, and using it in ways that we can’t even begin to imagine. But that isn’t good enough. The “Mommy State” wants you to depend on her for everything, including what they make you perceive as your own ‘well-being’. Once that happens, you are a slave. You’re a slave to the government.
I’m not about to let that happen.
Thanks, Ryan.
Joey
Maybe we would should not allow the consumption of alcohol in privatly owned property. After all, I could get pissed off drunk and smack someone and get in my car and kill someone. Would that not be a collateral effect on the public of a legal substance consumed on private property ?
This no smoking on private property bullshit has got some serious power behind it to actually get away with it for this long.
Something is seriously wrong when I cant open a decent house and let my patrons retreat to a room and have a cigar and a cognac.
There is no such thing as “the customer is always right” Its one of the dumbest phrases I’ve ever heard in my life.
I’ve come to many a table and said if you dont like it pay your tab and beat it. This is what we do here.
I actually had Jim Neighbors thrown out once for screaming across the dinig room.
The majority of those coming to our restaraunt knew the service and its standards and were not going to ask to change it for everyone just to suit themselves.
We choose the atmospehere, and we owned it.
They also have died. As a vice it is self fulfilling in it’s end game.The government are a bunch of hypocrites. Tax the vice hoping to spend the money. Try to remove the vice without regard to the rights of people.Excellent post and quality additions under comments. Keep it up. HAGWE
This just keeps getting worse and worse, I just posted today about a California city that has banned smoking in duplexes and aprtment buildings. I have heard talk that places will be banning smoking in cars if there is more than one person in the car. When does it stop? If the government thought smoking was that bad for you they should ban it alltogehter, but the truth is it is too profitable for the government. they don’t care if smoking kills you, they just want to get the most money from you they can before you die.
Anti, you’re 100% correct. Smokers quit on their own. They also start on their own, continue on their own and die on their own. The heavy hand of government intervening is asinine at best. As smokers disappear, so will establishments that voluntarily allow smoking. As I said, it’s basic supply and demand economics.
Micky’s point may sound ridiculous, but what makes it ridiculous is that it is true. Why not ban alcohol too? After all, alcohol certainly has deleterious effects on society – more so than second-hand smoke ever will – so why not tell a bar owner that he can no long sell alcohol because it threatens public health? What’s the difference? By the government and anti-smoking lobby’s rules, there is no difference.
I like smoking and if it kills me all I can say is, everybody dies of something. If I never smoked a day in my life I would still die. I have never smoked that much, maybe one pack a week max. Now I smoke as a political statement as much as for the enjoyment.
It always shocks me that Liberals are so anti-smoking when they are supposed to be the biggest equal-rights advocates pushing to take away rights from smokers. If there was such a huge call for non-smoking bars in this free-market society, don’t you think there would be a few more? If you enjoy your liberties, don’t mess with the liberties of others!
Smoking bans are wonderful because the majority of the population that does not smoke no longer has to put up with breathing in foul smoke. I think smoking bans should be implemented in every state so that children no longer have to breathe in smoke, and so that it sends a message to children that smoking is bad. I live in Ohio, and the smoking ban has made public establishments much more enjoyable to visit. Even though restaurants used to have smoking areas, the smoke would always drift over to the nonsmoking areas making the nonsmoking areas pointless. The ban has allowed me to go to restaurants without having to worry about how much smoke there will be in them, and if it will cause me to start coughing. No one should have to avoid places because of smoke which has very harmful side effects that hurt the people around the smokers more than those smoking the actual cigarettes.
Melissa, don’t take this the wrong way or anything, but couldn’t you have simply exercised your right to freedom of choice and gone to establishments that are smoke free? Why do you think that it is acceptable to take away a property owner’s right to free choice so that you don’t have to make a decision on your own?
As far as the children go, it’s simple. If you are a parent, keep your kids away from smoke if you don’t want them to breathe it in. It’s really just that simple. Teach your kids that smoking is bad if you want to. Do not put that responsibility in the hands of the government. Teaching kids what is good or bad through excessive nanny-state legislation is a piss-poor way to parent.
Allowing the government to step in and shelter people at the expensive other other people’s rights is not acceptable. Just because people like you think that you have the <em<right to go wherever you want to without having to worry about smoke does not mean that it is ok to step on other people. Your rights do not trump the rights of another. It just doesn’t work like that.